Welcome to the first edition of POINT/COUNTERPOINT...a new segment where Erik Bohn and Jason Briggs discuss and debate the most talked-about topics in Minnesota Rec Ultimate Hoops.

Have a question you would like Erik and Jason to debate? Feel free to place it in the comments below or send it here and your topic could be up next.

Without further ado...

Erik

Alright Briggsy, we've hit the big time. Instead of inflammatory emails going back and forth between our Gmail accounts, we're taking it to the public forum. Hide the women and put the children to bed, because I'll be dropping knowledge bombs on you all season.

Briggs

Maybe you've just now hit the big time, I've been there for quite some time. As for this idea, challenge accepted! Hopefully my one-sided victories don't cause you to cut even more of my playing time for the Blue Chips, since I'm already down to less than 20 minutes per game. Well go ahead and start dropping "knowledge bombs", what is topic number 1?

Erik

Alright, alright, alright!

(Wooderson voice - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wf-mRo7C2I)

You're feeling confident, so let's start with a heavy hitter in our first week. MN Rec has spawned two UH legends - one known more prevalently by his alter ego and the other has been billed as a UH Media Mogul. That's right, we're talking about J. Moore aka Hot Tub Tony and Joe Neuenfeldt!

Both have put their stamp on UH over the years, but what I want to know is this: Who's the better GM?

Hot Tub has been running his W.C.C.O. (World Class Celtics Organization) for years, but Neuenfeldt has made his mark by putting together the two-time and current defending MN rec champion Rebels. I'll be in the Joe N. corner for this championship bout - think you can defend the man, the myth, the legend, Hot Tub Tony??

Round 1 - DING!

Briggs

Can I defend him??? The man is already the Godfather of my future kids, I would have picked him first! While Joe and the Rebels are a cute story, Hot Tub wrote the damn book!

When I sit back and take a long look at the history of Ultimate Hoops, Hot Tub Tony and the Celtics have been the top story since 2009. They are the Duke Blue Devils of UH, you hate them because chances are they are going to beat you down. You don't compile a resume like he has without being the best, not to mention the consistency in which he has his teams at the top of the league. The Celtics have won 3 Gold Cups, been in 2 more Gold Cup games, and also
won a few Fridley titles which leads me to believe this will be one lopsided debate.

Nothing against Joe, his hair, or his team...but he simply doesn't stack up to Hot Tub Tony!

Erik

I guess your future kids are going to be spending most of their time talking smack on UH message boards and touting how great their G-6 is. I prefer a GM who put together a team that has won both Gold Cups they've played in - including a 15 point win over Hot Tub's squad in the most recent championship.

Since Joe assembled the Rebels, they've gone 22-3 and never lost in the playoffs. In their first season they had a point differential of 20ppg (75.6 points scored, 55.7 points allowed), and they improved that differential to 25ppg (77.5 points scored, 52.5 points allowed) in their second season. In the playoffs - when facing the best competition - they have outscored their opponents by 19ppg.

I don't know about you, but where I come from, 2 for 2 in Gold Cup games and beating the Celtics head-to-head for the title counts as more than a cute story. What book was it that Hot Tub wrote again?

Briggs

I won't disagree that 2 for 2 is certainly impressive, but what happened to Spring 2011? I remember a Celtics squad that went 12-0 on their way to another Gold Cup, but where were the Rebels? You must think it is a sign of a great team and great GM to take a season off every once in awhile. Maybe a few of the Rebels had a few prior engagements in May and June that prevented them from rejoining the team for Spring Season, but would that have stopped Hot Tub Tony? Let me give you both the long and short answer...NO!!

Rather than sit around in a circle and drink PBR out of the Gold Cup, the Celtics would have reloaded with talent and made another run. If you want proof, take a look at the past few seasons. Hot Tub wins a Gold Cup and Ryan Samuelson takes a season off, so he grabs a few new players like Kem Michel and makes it back to the Gold Cup Semis. The next season he loses Michel and Pederson, but adds R-Sam and Garland on his way to another Gold Cup. Then this past season he loses the best player in UH (J-Sam), yet still gets his team to the title game. What would the Rebels have done if Montzka or Magnuson couldn't play for a season, they'd fold up the franchise again.

As for what happened in the title game, the Celtics lost and the Rebels won. I won't sit here and say that the Celtics were a better team last season, they got beat by 15 points and could only muster 50 for the entire game. The problem when you're actually willing to take risks is that sometimes they don't work out. I'd compare that roster to the Trail Blazers back in about 2000, since they had a collection of 10 really good players that didn't quite fit together. The team had 4 point guards, 3 hot heads, 2 chuckers, and 1 Jansen...yet still got to the Gold Cup Final. Hot Tub himself would call last season a disappointment, despite playing in the championship game. When you're the best, that's the expectations you put upon yourself and your entire team. The Rebels would have sat at home if they lost their best player, while my man Hot Tub is out making deals.

As for the 22-3 record the Rebels have compiled, that pales in comparison to the 95-9 mark the W.C.C.O. has collected since Summer 2009.

Erik

I will give you one thing - Hot Tub is quite the recruiter. He has top notch talent on his squad every year that most GM's only dream about. But why is it that he has to keep bringing in new people every season? Granted, he had a roster full of great individual players last season (11 in total....11!!), but we all saw how that story ended in the Gold Cup game against Joe's Rebels.

I'm more impressed by the roster continuity on the Rebels than the revolving roster door the Celtics have. Isn't it a sign that a GM put a great team together if they have the same roster for three straight years (with Joe Thomas being the lone addition after the first season)? While Hot Tub is trying to collect as much individual talent as he can, Joe was building an actual team. All the players compliment each other and they play some of the best team ball in all of UH, not just the MN Rec division.

You can play the hypothetical game all you want and say the "Rebels would have sat at home if they lost their best player," but we'll never need to know if that scenario would play out because the same team is always staying together!

During their last championship run, the Rebels had six players average between 9.0-14.8 ppg. They are also the best defensive team in the league, which speaks again to how great a TEAM Joe put together, not just a collection of all-stars. Maybe Hot Tub needs to spend less time on recruiting trips in the G-6 and more time figuring out how to get a team together that can improve on a 15 point drubbing by the Rebels in the Gold Cup.

Briggs

That's my whole point, it's not three straight seasons. Winter 2011, Summer 2011, and Fall 2011 is not three consecutive seasons, just like the Rebels did not win back to back championships. We can't sit here and act like Spring 2011 never happened, because I'm pretty sure the old checking account was about $60 light thanks to Ultimate Hoops. The Rebels gave up for a season while Jansen and Ferber wore Nuggets blue and the Celtics were busy bringing home another trophy. People's lives occasionally get in the way Ultimate Hoops, yet Hot Tub gets his ass in the G6 and fields a great sqaud anyway. The Celtics did not have a great team this past season, yet they showed up and played. Who knows exactly what happened to the Rebels in Spring, but I do know that all 8 players were sitting home while the Celtics raised banner number 3 in the rafters.

Again, I won't argue the merits of the Summer 2011 Celtics. They played like a collection of individuals in the title game, which is why the Rebels took it to them. The basis of this argument is not simply based on the outcome of 1 game, but the merits of each general manager. I'll take a long career of consistent results over a guy who can't even field a squad every season. Like I mentioned before, the Celtics have 3 Gold Cup Titles, 2 Title Game Losses,
2 Fridley Titles, and an overall record of 95-9. And by the way, my boy J Moore has a Gold Cup MVP to go along with all his titles. While Joe is pacing the sidelines brushing the hair out of his eyes, Hot Tub is actually on the court making things happen.

To wrap up my argument, Hot Tub is simply unmatched by anyone that came before him or will come after him. The man is an irreplaceable UH Icon that simply gets results, while also giving this league a little much-needed style. Joe on the other hand, is a former "media darling" that has already been replaced...KJ???(Crickets) The guy has had two great seasons but simply lacks the resume to be listed in the company of my boy Hot Tub Tony!

Erik

I can't argue with the man's resume or place in UH history, he's a first-ballot Hall of Famer by all accounts. Unfortunately for Hot Tub, his place as the best GM in MN Rec is being taken over by the up and comer.

(And let's not bring the hair into this conversation - I heard Joe just got it insured by Lloyds of London for $1 million)

You can talk about all the Fridley titles and Gold Cup losses you want, but they are exactly that....titles from a less-competitive league than Bloomington South and losses in the championship. Who cares about those? I'll take the GM who already has two Gold Cups to his name in two seasons, has never lost in the playoffs, has put together the most feared team in MN Rec, and who also carries a 1-0 record vs. your boy Hot Tub.

In the end, I think we can both agree on one thing - neither of these GM's is going to come knocking on our doors to recruit us to play on their respective teams any time soon.

Last note: How long do you think it will take before my man Quincy Young aka Young Love gets on this thread and submits his own resume for consideration in the best GM discussion?

Briggs

I'd put the over/under at about 8 minutes.